Bill Nye Booed by Bible Believers for Pointing out Moon Reflects the Sun
The Emmy-winning scientist angered a few audience members when he criticized literal interpretation of the biblical verse Genesis 1:16, which reads: “God made two great light, the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.”
He pointed out that the sun, the “greater light” is but one of countless stars and that the “lesser light” is the moon, which really is not a light at all, rather a reflector of light.
A number of audience members left the room at that point, visibly angered by what some perceived as irreverence.
“We believe in a God!” exclaimed one woman as she left the room with three young children.
Via Ocellated.com >
It would be funny if it weren’t so sad. That people can still deny this easily understood and intuitive scientific fact by relying on their holy text should give us pause considering some of the other, less benign, things that are written in it. For instance, things about the roles of women, the value of certain races, and the end of the world
It is interesting to read the different posts on this site. I am a Christian and am not represented by much of what it written here. I don’t have a problem with science, I am a woman pastor, I want peace and not war, I am not a republican by any stretch, I believe that people in the church are just as messed up as people outside the church (referring to comments about clergy abuse). In my estimation the Christian life is a life that strives to be different. Different from the brokenness that so many of us experience on a daily basis. I believe that through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus this is a real possibility for people. Are Christians perfect? No, and any that try to tell you they are have a shallow view of life. Are Christians all ignorant boobs that can’t reason about anything? No and anyone that tells you they are has a shallow view of life.
Hi girlpastor,
You wrote:
“Are Christians perfect? No, and any that try to tell you they are have a shallow view of life. Are Christians all ignorant boobs that can’t reason about anything? No and anyone that tells you they are has a shallow view of life.”
I couldn’t agree more. Thank you for commenting. My intention for posting news stories is not to say that they are representative of all religious people. If that were the case, I would be lumping the overwhelming majority of my family and friends in with the corrupt and ignorant that are highlighted in these news stories. I wouldn’t do that - some of the most intelligent and gracious people I have met are religious.
Rather, this blog is an answer to the question, “What harm is religion doing anyone?” This is a question I often get when I tell people that I am atheist and that I think that the world would be a better place if we could get rid of religion.
Best wishes,
Brian
Wouldn’t you agree that some of the gracious and intelligent people you know are the kind of people they are because of their faith? Can’t the question be repositioned like this: What can we do to cause less harm in the world? That is the kind of question that can be answered by religious, non-religious, Christian, Jew, Muslim, aethist, right? And as we take the time to see where there is harm on every front in the human experience we can work together to better religion, education, foreign policy, human rights, and the list goes on and on. When we seek to fix a problem simply by breaking off one part that is causing trouble we have plucked it by the stem and not gotten to the root of the problem. The root of the problem is the human tendency to turn in on self which then causes harm. For some of us this is sin, for others evil, for other systemic failure. It is the root of the problem that needs fixing, not the removal of one of the branches. Why not prune? Why not water and feed? Why not cross germinate? What good does it do to ask and answer the question of what harm religion is doing if we don’t seek to find a way to end that harm? I’d love to hear a response.
Hi girlpastor,
No, I wouldn’t say that the gracious and intelligent people I know are that way because of their faith. Of course, that is an impossible thing to know for sure. But, what I’ve experienced and observed in my life is that people can be good people with or without religion. There isn’t any morality or teaching that is exclusive to a religion. In other words, I think that we can live good “Christian lives” without all the Christianity. I plan on teaching my children many “religious morality lessons” (for instance “Do unto others as you’d have done to you”) but without teaching them that Jesus is their savior and the only path to a good life and heaven.
Reforming religion would be nice but, unfortunately, much of the religious teachings that allow and inspire hatred and violence are written in allegedly “perfect” religious texts.
I think that we can blame human nature for the fact that religions exist. Then blame religions for being the divisive forces that they are.
As far as ending religious harm, I propose that we get rid of religion. It will probably never happen but hopefully we will make progress toward ending magical thinking and seek to find ways to experience the benefits of religion (bonding, striving to be a better person, etc.) via secular means.
Trackback: http://tinyurl.com/2cgnxy
Brian,
In other words your religion is non-religion. And you will do whatever it takes to make your religion the “truth.” Is that right? The trackback that is attached to this conversation certainly asserts that same attitude. The arrogance and mocking of others just demonstrates that there is no room for conversation, there is only room for non-religious religion. There are many Christians who would also assert that the Bible is not inerrant, not perfect and never intended to be scientific. The sad things is that a great conversation could be had but there are religous extremists who won’t come to the table and there are non-religious extremist that come to the table but just make fun of everybody else. I’m content to be in the middle. Maybe someday others will move there too and instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water we can find a way to solve the problems caused by both sides. Until then…
Hi again girlpastor,
At this point in our discussion I think our differing opinions on what to do with religion center on whether there is any truth to, for instance, Christianity. Needless to say, I don’t feel that removing religious doctrine from religions (creating “non-religions”) is throwing the baby out with the bathwater but I can understand how you would feel that way.
I would like to avoid ever having a religion - and I’m not sure what religion you are referring to. I think that our understanding of what is true is constantly evolving and changing - two things that religions aren’t very good at.
I apologize if I’m coming off as arrogant. I didn’t realize that I was. As far as mocking religion, I am not. I take religion very seriously and that is why I started this blog. I am not laughing about any of the news stories I have blogged and I think that religion is a serious problem.
I too am an atheist, and don’t see anything wrong with teaching lessons from the Bible, Koran, or scriptures of Buddhism or Hinduism without following any religious practice.
I also believe Aesop’s fables, Greek/Roman and Norse mythologies also teach important lessons and are great examples of early literature. I don’t believe in Zeus any more than I believe in Jesus. They are both powerful literary characters, archetypes in the traditional “hero’s journey” as noted by Joseph Campbell and others.
One thing I’ve noticed is that frequently I am not only more knowledgeable about details of the bible - other than quoting chapter & verse - than many Christians, but I also have a much greater knowledge of other religions, as frequently they have none. Many of the Christians I know were indoctrinated in childhood, never studied comparative religion, and have never read anything from the holy books of another faith. They were never given the opportunity to appreciate the wisdom of the world’s other religions, and miss out on everything but the one religion they were raised in.
I see religion as a reflection of a culture. You know the old Mark Twain quote, “God created man & man returned the favor.” There’s lots to learn about the human condition by looking at it from other perspectives. I don’t have a problem reading or sharing the wisdom I read in the bible or any other religious book, because I see them as literature and not a threat to my or my child’s belief system.
Incidentally, if you look at those areas where religion, philosophy, and science agree - those points are likely the “truth”. In areas where they do not, I tend to give science the most credence, but even so I study it to develop an opinion through critical thinking - as I do religion, which has not held up as well under similar scrutiny.
Vick - That is exactly how I feel. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
I am an athiest/agnostic. Proud to be. I used to go to church, I have read the bible many times. One day I woke up and realized I had been lied too. The type of athiest/agnostic I am is the type that doesn’t believe nor care. I believe that religion is the cause of all hatred/war in our world. If you think different than look up some of the major wars through out the past 5000 years.
Andrew, it is not the religion that is the cause. It is merely a vessel for human base instinct. If there was no religion there would still be war, it would be thought other some other difference in option. Because that is all it comes down to, people fighting over a difference in option. If we all over come these differences in option, or least expect them as intrinsic to the human condition, and learn to live with them, and work together for the sake of our future, then we will live in peace. Such comments as religion is the cause of all hatred and war only serves to drive a wedge between peoples, causing more “hatred” if you will.
My name is Jordan, and for the past year and a half, i was struggling with my faith, or in this case, lack thereof. I am Legally blind with Retinitis Pigmentosa, a degenerative eye condition in which the retina’s rod and cone cells die. I am losing my peripheral vision, and looking through a dark tunnel.
I began to lose my fath in the existance of a god when i realised that my eyes are ghetting worse, not better, despite my efforts to please said god. I also have believed in the theories of evolution and other scientific theories, but never actually realised that a lot of these theories elliminate a lot of what i believed to be true. I put 2+2 together.
The biggest part of why i am now atheist, is because of the behavior of worshipers. I’ve seen people burn books, because they promoted witchcraft, even though any logical person will tell you that there is no magic, but illusion in real life. I have seen people call me a murderer because i believe a woman should have the right to choose to have an abortion. I have had people of my previous faith damn me to hell for not agreeing that homosexuality is a sin.In short, I was disillusioned by the hate. I was disillusioned by facts, and evidence, my two bests friends in daily life.
I am coming to understand now that atheists are being denied some rights. Like in some states, atheists cannot testify in court. While this does not offend me yet, i do find it despicable.
There are thousands of religions, and yes, i mean thousands. If each one claims that not believing in their religion damns you to hell, either we’re playing russian roulette, or they’re all wrong.
As far as an afterlife, I hope that there is some sort of reencarnation, like the bhudists believe. I have my own moral code now, and it is not formed from my former religion.
My question is: if the wars caused by religion would have happened anyway, even without the religions, how could they have been stopped? I may have forfieted many rights by leaving my faith, so, what do we do now?
Doesn’t Nye’s point seem a bit pedantic to anyone? Technically speaking a lamp isn’t a light either as it merely disperses the light generated by the filament in a bulb. It seems to me that Nye was just picking a fight here. Is there any reason to believe that this woman actually thought the moon generated it’s own light and didn’t just leave because she didn’t like the guy’s attitude?
Also, if we’re all going start slapping ourselves on the back about how many times we’ve read the bible and how much more we know about christianity than christians, presumably someone can cite me a verse where the Bible encourages racism as implied in the initial post. Or else explain why nobody took issue with that rather slimy piece of slander. It’s exactly this sort of thing that makes us look like rabid anti-religious loons.
p.s. on the subject of Gen 1, I’d be quicker to point out that it implies grass, trees and other photosynthesising flora were created before the Sun. Rather more problematic than the sort of facile pedantry that would presumably demand the word “moonlight” be struck from the English language.
p.p.s on the subject of facile pedantry, “Si Dieu nous a fait à son image, nous le lui avons bien rendu.” is Voltaire, not Twain.
God’s only excuse is that he does not exist. — Stendhal
Well, let’s see. Let ‘moonlight’ go. I prefer moonshine myself.
Ever try to see how well a filament produces light by itself? It literally burns away in a few seconds. Without a vacuum and the the glass envelope enclosing it, there would be no light producing ‘blub’. That is, having a intact filament with proper current flowing through it are only necessary conditions for there to be a continuous light. It’s a lightbulb after all.
There are extreme xians who hold that the mark of Cain is black skin. Further, the idea of an African genesis for all of humanity is anathema to a far wider group of white supremacists and racial separatists, all still quite common in the U.S. This aspect of anti-evolutionary reaction deserves a wider press. Xian writings get interpreted in ways which attempt to support, directly or indirectly, racism.
bipolar2
I really don’t have much to say about this topic, I generally try to stay out of these types of arguments. Not because I don’t have an opinion either way, but rather because I realize that no matter what I have to say, it’s not going to change any opinion that some other person might have. I will say this: I am a Christian, I believe in a God, but perhaps not in the way that most Christians do. That being said, I understand and embrace completely the scientific truths in life, and I just wish more Christians, and other fundamentalist types, would wake up to the simple fact that we live in a universe bound by the laws of science.
Having said all that, I really just wanted to say that there are those of us out there that consider themselves believers, but also are not naive enough to think that the world is only 6,000 years old!
And by the way, this thread has had one of the most intelligent series of posts I’ve ever seen on a blog or any other type of website! Kudos to whomever started it!
As is described in Moses’ account of creation week in Genesis 1:16… God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
Is somebody claiming that Moses should have made it clear that moon light is a product of reflection from the sun, making it an indirect source of light rather than a direct source of light? I gather that he probably didn’t know that God designed it in this way. Adam and Eve probably didn’t know either. What’s the big deal? The moon reflects light and therefore can be described as the source of the moonlight.
Similarly, I am the source of income to my employees, but ultimately, that income comes from my customers. My employees label my company as the source for their income, rather than the customers from whom the income actually comes.
The Bible is not a book about science, medicine, anthropology, astronomy or history, but when it touches on any of those things, you can believe it!
I have a really hard time believing that there are Christians out there who don’t believe that moonlight comes from a reflection of the sun.
If you are a Christian and you don’t understand this, email me and I’ll do what I can to better explain this aspect of God’s amazing engineering.
I’m adding spaces to my email address to prevent spam bots from acquiring it… joshua @ dineinonline.com.
Respectfully,
Joshua A. Railton
How daft are we here, when ancient texts are discovered they undergo rigorous scientific analysis for authenticity, has the common Christian bible been put to the same tests lately? This is a historical book on the faith of two patriachal monotheistic religions, and we have sheeple blindly following. Methinks the Universal creator shakes their head.
Let US make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea ….
eek now we are dealing with not one God but many, faint froth, go within people find the Creator within, not in texts re written by man over and over again to suit themselves…
I think the crux of the story was the defensiveness of the religious when faced with opposing truth…but how can there be opposing truth if god is the truth? That is the fatal error with all religions-and neither atheism nor science are religions…that’s a desperate attempt by those who believe in supernatural forces to create a straw man. Atheists don’t have to disprove anything about religion or gods…it’s the burden of those that believe to prove something first…
Why argue with fools who think they have all the answers? Give them the room to discover how imperfect they are the hard way. Time to let this ship sink!
The mind is a terrible thing to waste…
Okay folks, just a few points to clarify here. If the Bible is not a manual for understanding science, physics, and the workings of the world, it is obviously an INCOMPLETE work. as without the scientific background on all things deist, one cannot ignore mismatched facts. in other words. if god told moses “yeah there’s two lights up there, the moon and the sun.” god would have been WRONG. for simplicity’s sake man can afford to be wrong, but if the bible explains god as flawless, he cannot simplify the truth, he must speak it in it’s entirety. more to the point, the fact that a statement can be both true, and untrue at the same time, god wouldn’t be able to speak without breaking his own perfection, or telling us exactly how the universe works, in every detail each time he talks to one of us, therefore god cannot possibly exist, at least not in a way that is measurable (or if you like, in a way that MATTERS) in our lives, and if he could he probably wouldn’t want us writing stuff that we think he told us (auditory hallucinations) down and giving him credit for it. the proof that the bible was written by MEN is as firm as it gets. the proof that humans in general are capable of lying, and being wrong, and failing at things, means that god cannot speak to every person on this earth through a single religious work, and that we must take all scientific and religious texts at face value for what they are, and in the case of the “words of christ in red” I apologize to those of you who may take offense, but they are LIES! if jesus was fathered by god himself he would likely have been able to convert his attackers without bloodshed, there’s no such thing as being “half-all-powerful” either being the son of god he is god, or he is just a man, that could do things in a way that made them seem like miracles, which could hint at an advanced brain capable of higher thought processes. or it could be an indicator that the whole thing, (every little bit) was made up.
yes I run my sentences together, take whatever meaning from that you wish, but if you misunderstand something please don’t try to stand on it as an argument.
You are all wrong!
Atheists are just as bad as christians for attempting to rob the Damned for their just heritage that is Hell.
Personally, I could not wish more for a revival of the religious panic concerning SRA in the 90s; Atheism is boring and I’d quite like to believe that omni-powerful creatures battle in turn for the epitome of honours; To Harvest My Immortal Soul.
I can’t wait until I see everybody burn in Hell!
Kindest regards,
The Dreamtorrent
Not so much about Christians as it is about people who take offense over the least offensive things.
Still, the context of this amuses me to no end.
The lady who runs out with her three children reminds me of every Christian that wants to save me. They don’t even get their moneys worth.
When some people still this the earth is flat….
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
…this story doesn’t surprise me at all
Dear Brian,
I just wanted to thank you for the read. Although I did not read the whole discussion the parts I did were very enjoyable, I found your use of language to be very concise. I noticed you came from a point of view that explained your feelings very clearly, highlighting this to me, was this statement:
“I apologize if I’m coming off as arrogant. I didn’t realize that I was. As far as mocking religion, I am not.”
I found this to be honest and frankly your point of view, which was a welcome change from reading posts where one speaks on anothers behalf, to make their word seem stronger.
Thanks again.
the sun absolutely reflects on the moon , science does’nt need to prove any of it.people should get the facts straight before jumping on their high horses.saddens me to think that in the intelligent, that their are people that still needs all kinds of silly proof.
Picking on fundies is cruel. It is like picking on a person who is mentally retarded. We should speak slowly to them. Don’t engage them in a conversation that requires logic. And whenever they speak, just smile to yourself, pat them on the head, and say, “sure, whatever you say.”
In reading some of the comments, I’ve noticed several people establishing what kind of atheist / agnostic they are. I have had plenty of time to think this subject over, and I’m not sure if this is a broader distinction, but I’m fairly sure that any atheist holds this view: The only dogma worth a damn is that dogma isn’t worth a damn. I have found that the nature of healthy skepticism, questioning and examination will often yield positive and anti aggressive actions. Assumptions and Assertions are rarely correct, helpful, rather crippling instead.
I am aware that what I’ve just said is probably a re hash of some one else’s lesson somewhere. But I came to that conclusion to myself, and to a certain degree, am proud of it.
Back on point, being offended by something like that… wow.
I’m not sure why there is so much disagreement in the world over such benign issues.
First I want to address what Girlpastor said “In other words your religion is non-religion. And you will do whatever it takes to make your religion the “truth.” ”
This argument usually comes from a religious perspective, but it really is just a misunderstanding of what atheism is.
Many religious people think that everybody has to have a religion. This is simply untrue. Atheists have no religion. The lack of belief in things that cannot be proved with evidence is NOT a religion in any way shape or form. The term Atheist and Skeptic can usually go hand in hand with each other, although the term atheist is what skepticism of religion is called. Atheists are generally skeptics. To be skeptical means to require proof or evidence to accept something is true.
To some extent we are all skeptics with the exception of perhaps the severely mentally disabled. If your friend told you he/she was the president of the United States, you would not take them on their word because you know this to be contradictory to common sense, if you are to trust what they are saying a normal person would require evidence or proof of this.
Atheists are just skeptics that apply reasoning skills to all parts of their life including the philosophical. It is in no way a religion.
Secondly there are major problems with religion. Religion requires a person to abandon their skeptical nature, or at least temporarily while thinking religious thoughts a person must not be skeptical, for if a person is to think logically about religion they are sure to lose their faith. The problem with this is that many people do not just “temporarily abandon their skeptical nature”, many start to apply this blind faith (all faith is blind so this is somewhat of an oxymoronic statement) to all parts of their lives. Many people actually think that the bible is a non-fiction book, and that every single word of it is true. The bible and other religious texts are some of the most violent and degrading books in the world, it is no wonder that we have had countless wars because of religions. If people believe that some guy named jesus was born approximately 2000 years AND that he was the son of god because a really old book said that he turned water into wine, what else will this person believe? If you can get a person to believe something that makes NO SENSE so strongly that they are willing to defend their belief to the death, what else could you get them to believe… ANYTHING.
We have several scenarios for the state of the world for the near future.
1) The world ends in nuclear/biochemical holocaust over religious reasons
2) The world ends in nuclear/biochemical holocaust over economic reasons
3) The world ends in an accidental biochemical or nuclear holocaust
Can’t we just scratch off one of those?
My plea to religious people is this, if you are going to base your life on things that not only can not be proved, but have been extensively disproved via self contradiction, keep it to yourself and realize that you have not applied your intellect in a way that is going to help humanity.
The problem is that not many believers will read any of these lines. In my view skepticism need to ‘preached’, taught. This, avoiding discussion as much as possible, about the feasibility of any superstition or systems of belief.
Religions and the belief in the supernatural are nothing but a projection of natural human weakness, and should be fought as diseases. A passive contemplation of your equals accepting a distorted reality in order to feel safe is shameful.
People shouldn’t preach atheism because then we would be forcing it on others. As of now, most atheists are atheists because they choose to be so. They think about it and choose it (I hope so anyway). If we set up atheism churches, we would be just like religious fanatics, which is far worse than just being religious. Being religious is perfectly fine, as long as you aren’t crazy about it. I’m sure there are intelligent religious people who might not be religious if they weren’t brought up to be from a young age. If we start churches for atheism, it’s almost equal to brainwashing. Let people choose for themselves.
I am an African American, and it seems absurd to me that any one in America can believe in any deity Christian or African after learning of the African holocaust on the continent, the destruction of the African persona in the Americas and the mass rape of African women for more than 200 years.
Or, does this mean god dosent like African people? in either case I have no use for the idea of any “god”
In my opinion, the crux of the issue lies with the simple brilliance of fusing superstition to morality. Were it not for this and of course Emperor Constantine, Christianity would have been just another cult. Judaism excelled with laws and tradition- force. The messiah for them will come back as a dominant forceful entity. However, Christianity used something that touched people far deeper- fear. The vast majority of them believe that if the world was atheist, we would run around eating children’s brains after molesting them and shooting old ladies in the head for their bingo money. It is their contention that without God and Jesus, there would be no morality. This is of course not true and can be clearly seen in well educated secular societies. The creation of the universe should be held with the same importance as Pluto’s classification and String Theory. Meaning, to the average person, it should be something to ponder. Nothing more. For some, people of science- it should be pursued with vigilance. It should be pursued using one of man’s greatest inventions- the scientific method. Not only has this method served mankind well, the greatest of its attributes lies in the fact that it is self correcting. As we study, learn, observe and test our world- old ideas are thrown out and new understandings follow. The church and religion fight this so hard because it simply cannot stand against such a system. How many times has the ideas put forth by religious writings been disproven by science? The light of the Moon? The Earth’s path around the Sun and not vice-versa?
These writings are pawned off as divine word and sacred, yet they are constantly misinterpreted, misused and overstated.
Some of these writings are dismissed, some are held fast. How do you pick and choose? In my observations, believers live in a buffet of morality and pick the verse to justify their intent. One minute they scream- AN EYE FOR AN EYE when seeking revenge- yet when they are the offenders they beg- turn the other cheek. The bible is filled with contradictions and this is not by mistake. This provides justification for either side of a dilemma with the turn of a page. 95% of all claimed “chrisitans” that I have met, have never read the bible. Yet, they hold this so dear and base their lives upon a random leader’s interpretation. Isn’t that the purpose for Church? People go to church to have a book interpreted and read to them. Certainly there are many other reasons- fellowship, comfort in belonging to something, show off fancy clothes… but the idea behind it all is to tell people how to interpret a book that any literate person can read.
So, it is my opinion, that this is truly is all by intelligent design. However, its not Santa, Jesus, the Easter Bunny, or Jehova. It was created and refined by people looking for an effective means to control the population. The debate will continue on and as long as it does those in power will be in control. Atheists are not the enemy, education is.
“Religion is what keeps the poor man from murdering the rich.”
— Napolean Bonaparte
Tinkerbelle said:
“When some people still this the earth is flat….
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
…this story doesn’t surprise me at all”
“The Flat Earth Society” is a joke made by atheists.
Even though some poeple do still believe that the earth is flat, this particular website is not to be taken seriously, as it is only a joke.
I am an atheist because it’s in God’s plan. And if God does in fact exist when I die… I can find it in my heart to forgive God for not giving me enough evident proof BEYOND THE SHADOW OF THE DOUBT! At least for an atheist like me.
Just have to throw in my 2 cents.
I grew up Roman Catholic and I still hold to many of the beliefs of that particular faith.
I disagree with a lot of it as well however. Intolerance of other religions or of the non-religious, intolerance of homosexuality, and so on.
Every person has a right to be who they are. If they are Jewish, then so be it. If they are gay, then that is part of who they are. They are all equal to one another.
This is perhaps my biggest dislike of organized religion. It isn’t just Christianity either, but since that’s the one I’m familiar with I use it as an example.
On the topic of skeptics,
Keep it up. Knowledge is power, choice is power.
In the business world one of the most sought after personality types in any focus group or BPI/Six-Sigma project is the Devils Advocate. He or she is the voice of doubt, they raise concerns when everything seems to be going perfect, they keep people on their toes and they enable whatever project you’re working on to be well prepared for that final review.
In this world it is those same people who force us to question ourselves and our faith. If you ask a question and the answer leads you somewhere you don’t like, perhaps you need to ask some more questions to find out why.
If the same question leads to a more fulfilling faith, then you have added a little more personal peace of mind and a little more comfort to your life.
I have asked myself many questions, involved myself in many discussions and debates and have done my best to learn from it all. The result is a strong personal faith and a lack of faith in organized religion. This is my view and it will differ for each person who makes this effort, but I encourage you to try if you don’t already.
Thanks for reading,
Adam
I’m Nick, and yes, I’m a bit of a skeptic myself, but I’m just wondering, why are we only being skeptical about religion here? I’m not talking about politics or anything truly off the subject, but what about science? You won’t find me disagreeing with evolution or gravity, but I find the Big Bang theory lacking.
Here’s how it goes, everything in the universe, all matter and energy, were gathered in a point of infinitesimally small size. It exploded and everything expanded and made planets, etc.
Am I the only one who wonders where the matter comes from? I thoroughly agree that religion is lacking, but science is lacking as well. I don’t believe that either truly explains how the universe was created, but together they form a cohesive whole. Religion explains the creation of matter, science explains the laws that govern it, and this is what I believe.
And to respond to RAGGGAN, even though religion started out as a means of controlling the masses, I don’t see that much in use in politics today. People contemplate the creation of the universe, and can feel enlightened when they do reach a logical conclusion with a person of a differing faith.
Nick
These posts represent all thats true. Although i’m an atheist I have to say that the monuments and architecture built to honour religion are a stunning displays of beauty and dedication. But how the human mind and science has moved on! it goes without saying that modern architecture can be just as stunning and beautiful. The human mind therefore is a phenomenally powerful thing. What i’m at a loss to understand though is this. (my perceptions here)Why do Atheists harvest flowers and religious people harvest weeds? The only signs of lasting peace in the world come from Atheists and agnostics. Religion will self destruct simply because humans have an ability to reach their goals regardless. That is Lasting peace
“God” is a personified metaphor for all the forces of the universe that we do not see nor understand.
Some trust “Science,” some trust “God.” Its all the same; the stuff we do not yet understand that will hopefully cure our ills and worries.
god made Me an Atheist. Who are you to question his judgment?
Sigh. I run into the denial of reality from Christians all the time.
I sincerely believe, though I am in no way qualified to definitively diagnose psychiatric problems, that a litteral belief in any religion is a a form of delusional disorder. I further believe it should be treated as such.
It’s time that all sensible people started their own ‘church’ in order to show up the folly of religion and it’s detrimental affect on the impressionable.
It seems to serve mainly as a tool that we use to make life miserable for each other.
I’d rather just die and let that be an end to my existance than ending up in heaven singing gloria hallelujah with the type of people who I see praying.
Boredom for eternity…No thanks.
Eirbiz.com
Girlpastor, is Brian going to burn in hell?
Can Jews go to heaven?
Is your god unable, or unwilling to stop childhood cancer?
I attended 12 years of RC school but started losing my faith in the second grade after the nun told that us all non-RCs went to hell. Sound familiar? LOL! I then tried really hard to find something outside the bible that would verify its claims.
I found nothing.
It’s eye opening for believers to discover that the Egyptians never knew anything about Moses and the Exodus or that neighboring countries have no record of a great flood.
I think that salvationist religions attract people who are desperate to feel special. As in “oh look at me, I’m saved and you’re not!”
I’d be religious today if there was some evidence for this invisible creature beyond his bizarre appearances in tortillas.
This sums up religion for me:
The Wisdom Of Emo Phillips
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said “Stop! don’t do it!” “Why shouldn’t I?” he said. I said, “Well, there’s so much to live for!” He said, “Like what?” I said, “Well…are you religious or atheist?” He said, “Religious.” I said, “Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?” He said, “Christian.” I said, “Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?” He said, “Baptist!” I said,”Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?” He said, “Baptist church of god!” I said, “Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?” He said,”Reformed Baptist church of god!” I said, “Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?” He said, “Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!”
I said, “Die, heretic scum”, and pushed him off. — Emo Phillips
Let me add these two to the Napoleon quote:
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.” –Seneca
About 15 centuries later, Edward Gibbon wrote: “The various modes of worship which prevailed in the Roman Empire were considered by the people as equally true, by the philosopher as equally false, and by the magistrate as equally useful.”
The christians could still interpret the moon as being “the lesser light” via reflection.
When people are at war with Bill Nye, you know that fundamentalism is doing more harm than good.
People, concentrate your efforts on being a good and peaceful person, no matter what you believe or don’t believe in. Things like this REALLY don’t matter enough to make a fuss about them.
It seems to me like a lot of you people are very angry.
Did a priest touch you in your no-no place when you were a child?
Were you beaten up by Christians?
Did Jesus make fun of you and call you bad names?
I just find it funny how atheists get so mad at Christians for believing in God.
Atheists try to force their views on others, which is something they hate Christians for.
I recommend you guys just chill out and remember not all Christians are going to act the way the people did in this story.
P.S. I know this might piss off but, I will be praying for you all.
Hey, you’re free to believe in whatever crazy thing you’re able to think up. Like giants, and unicorns and 7-headed dragons! They’re in the Bible, too!
I just find the idea of a God sacrificing himself to himself to save us from himself illogical.
Thank you, drive through.
wednesday night november 21 2007 9:39 pm
from johnny lynn gardner
johngardner_777@yahoo.com
49 years old white male
mineral wells texas usa
if the greater Light is the solar SUN
and if there is a Lesser light it must also have FIRE like the SUN
so that it can be a real LIGHT so it can be 2 lights 1 the big light and 2 the small light the intention is for there to be 2 lights that are both the same kind of lights
1 big light and 1 small light but the problem is that there is only 1 light because the moon is a reflection of the BIG light and the moon is NOT a true light at all of any kind and so there is NO TRUE smaller lesser light so BILL NYE IS RIGHT the holy bible is wrong because there is NO TRUE smaller lesser solar light with fire the same as the larger big light the same as the solar SUN there is only 1 light NOT 2 lights it is NOT as the holy bible says that it is there is only 1 true light the solar sun
>P.S. I know this might piss off but, I will be praying for you all.
Go ahead, but just understand that the act only impacts you by helping you to feel even more holier-than-thou. I’ve had believers offering to pray for me over 40 years, and I still can’t bring myself to believe in their fairy tales.
So go ahead, knock yourself out and have a great T-Day while you’re at it.
The woman was ignorant! The bible DOES NOT SAY THAT!!!!.
I am a religious jew and there are many places were it talks about how the moon reflects the light of the sun! It says so in the Talmud even. I talks about how the sun is the giver and the moon the receiver, and relates it to things like, for example, charity.
There is a midrash (fable) (also from the Talmud) about the 2 great lights yes, and how the moon complained how can you have to kings for one throne, and as a result god reduced the size of the moon. Scientifically you could say the sun used to be a binary star.
It really sucks how some Christians give religion a bad name with such STUPID and IGNORANT beliefs!
For disclosure purposes, I am a Christian. I find the group meditation of stand, sit, kneel and chanting in unison very enjoyable.
Typically a fundamentalist is a simpleton. I predominately use 2 pieces of information to nullify these uninformed zealots who have gone to “bible study” ( and don’t know a damn thing about the bible ) Number 1 is to bring up the q source or q text and ask them for an opinion on it. ( shocking they don’t cover this in bible study, but do cover this in collegiate courses ) ( btw the q text can even be located in google, you would think these people would at least google the bible? since they have studied it and everything ) What, you mean two of the gospel writers had cliff notes? The second is to ask them what version of the lords prayer in the bible is the correct one? ( i wouldn’t want to saying the wrong version of the lords prayer, it’s different in each gospel ) I’m sure when the apostles gathered and said the lords prayer together that they would know the words. This would be similar to football fans knowing the words to the school fight song.
Most of the people posting asserting to be an atheist in this thread would be well served to learn the definition of agnostic vs atheist. When you label yourself as an atheist and then expound your agnostic view you put yourself on the same footing as the fundamentalist. ( yes this is inferring that you are also a simpleton, oh wait i guess i just came out and said it )
There is no prof for God, except that mushrooms grow on cow excrement. Other than that, no proof. ( if there was proof beyond this the faith thing wouldn’t work ) Think of religion like watching the Simpsons with a 12 year old. You are both watching the same thing, but you ( hopefully ) have a different understanding of what you are watching than the 12 year old. The fundamentalist is the 8 year old not paying attention and then talks about the simpsons the next day at school.
It is intellectually dishonest to slam the fundamentalist for taking the bible literally and then use the same process to discount the bible. Please look up the word allegory it may help you in understanding the bible, but there may be no hope for you.
I think what the chick pastor is trying to say is that if you claim to be an atheist and are not apathetic about religion then you haven’t completely reconciled your belief system, or you are a liar and you aren’t an atheist.
If you really want to learn about Christianity, go talk to a Jesuit priest ….. they are very knowledgeable and for the most part nice guys with a good wine collection and cool artwork.
Now the next time you have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, be sure to enjoy it!
“Wouldn’t you agree that some of the gracious and intelligent people you know are the kind of people they are because of their faith?”
This suggests that the people are only good because of their faith. Morals and ethics exist despite faith. A god that believes people are good only because their faith warns them to be good is a weak god indeed.
Even Atheist scientists, hard at work seeking out the truth of the universe and reveling in the wonder of creation.. seem to be better Christians than these so-called “Bible Believers”.
How can “Bible Believers” abuse their own children by warping their mind with lies, while cheering on torture, murder, invasion, war, genocide, intolerance, hate, bigotry, suffering, and every other tenet of Evil.. while still honestly believing themselves to be good Christians?
These fake people enact and give voice to the agenda of the Devil with their words and deeds, they are false prophets, hypocrites and no true Christians.
Carlos,
Don’t confuse the anger that some atheists have at constantly being demeaned by believers and treated as second class citizens with an anger at a god they do not believe in. As an agnostic, I must rise to their defense, because I feel just as attacked as they do. For example, it’s pretty aggravating to know that in 2007 there are still a number of states which do not allow non-believers to hold public office. As if religious belief was some sort of guarantee of honest and decent behavior? It’s most certainly not.
I think the anger that you see online is the understandable blow-back that is now occurring because the Net provides people with a place to connect, debate, and share with others.
As for talking to a Jesuit, I did that all through high school. Over time my favorite teachers became “civilians” and got married.
I myself have an academic interest in religion which is no longer driven by a need to “find god” but rather by a curiosity as to why the ancient Israelite war-god still attracts a following.
I described myself as an agnostic because I’m open to an unknowable deist style god who created the universe but has bigger fish to fry than worrying if some teen is gay or if someone is masturbating under the sheets.
It’s time to grow up and accept that the bible is the product of an ancient tribal people trying to make sense of the pain, suffering and injustice in their lives. If it was the word of god, it would not be riddled with so many errors, contradictions, and knee-slappers, now would it?
If you sit down and have a friendly beer with an atheist or agnostic, you will find that most just want believers to keep their beliefs to themselves at work and in public. In other words, they want to be left in peace. I rarely waste my time in real life arguments over religion and politics because it’s pointless. It would also never cross my mind to ask anyone I meet in real life what their religion is. Never. It’s irrelevant in my mind. I judge people by their actions and not by their talk. (Although I must confess to preachiness being an instant turnoff.)
Sadly, the evangelical wing of Christianity manages to piss off everybody from atheists to mainstream Christians and everyone between.
cool blog…
As an atheist, I’m not angry at god — only his followers.
—
“We are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
— Stephen Roberts
There is not enough information about the situation to form a full opinion. In this case we see a man who is presumably invited to teach science and yet is quoting the bible. Why? If he overstepped his role and began to be critical, aggressively or passive aggressively, of the bible then what was his real agenda? If the audience is predominantly Christian or other faiths that accept the bible as scripture and he openly criticizes it can he really expect a warm reception. I expect that there is enough cause to believe there ‘may’ have been reason to boo Bill off the stage. I doubt they were booing the science but rather the criticism of something cherished. I may have joined in the booing.
We just don’t know from this story. Seems more like sensationalistic reporting and distortion of the facts to me. Maybe that is the new religion?
paning
Anyone see the pictures from the Apollo missions? Did I miss the moon’s surface emitting a visible glow? Or did God perhaps just switch it off when people were nearby, to keep the ‘debate’ alive.
This whole thing is a hoot. Thanks, kids.
I love Bill Nye
:3
oh jesus fucking christ.
First of all, I’m sixteen, and I can’t quite remember what I should call myself at this point, some new definition of atheist or agnostic seems to become fashionable every five days.
I see some stupidity on both sides of the argument (though in the end it is much better than most I’ve seen) and I’ll do what I can to “rectify” that, arrogant as it may be to claim that an opinion is wrong, it just seems to me that some people aren’t getting a proper look at things before speaking out.
For one, the idea that religion or belief in God should be treated like a disease is as much fearmongering nonsense as any fundamentalist Christian speech. Religion is not a manifestation of the weakness of man any more than emotions are. I don’t believe anyone can say that none of the tenets of Christianity, or any other religion, are any good. Bonding, finding a common cause, and having faith in something higher than oneself isn’t a disease even in the metaphorical sense of the word. Yes, it’s possible to find these things without religion, I have and so have many others, but religion is a vehicle for those beliefs for many people. Indoctrination is bad, it’s the antithesis of free thought. Religion is not systematically indoctrination. By wiping out religion, you discredit many of the greatest thinkers of the past millenium. Many were also atheists, of course, I never claimed otherwise.
I could continue this for a while and not get anywhere, so let me just state my point: Religion is neither the weakness of man nor the root of all evil. What we need isn’t the removal of religion, it’s for the people to understand and think for themselves about the good and bad things the Bible and other holy books preach, and see it for what it is to them, form an opinion, and for the organization to accept the concept of their own imperfection.
Ok, so I’ve read most of these comments, and feel for some reason that I might be able to add something useful to this debate. I’m agnostic, I’m not sure if there is a god. People that become atheist, saying such things as “god never answered my prayers”, or “look what god let happen” are being overly selfish. I have NEVER heard a good answer to why god, if s/he existed, would care about us small insigificant humans on some small planet, when s/he could instead be paying attention to the movement of entire planets, solar systems, galaxies, possibly other universes, or even on the opposite side of the scale, looking at the interactions between molecules. We also can’t know that god works on our own timescale even.
Douglas Adams, the writier of Hithhiker’s guide the galaxy, was atheist. He said he couldn’t stand the “typical british wishy-washy semi-relgiousness” or agnosticism. He thought it was lazy, to not think about it enough and pick your stance. I think agnosticism is a perfectly viable stance, I dont’ see how anyone can absolutely seriously say that there is or is not a god. While, i personally lean more atheism, there are some things that just can’t be answered that make me wonder if there is a god.
Some one earlier mentioned the big bang. it should be noted, its the big bang ‘theory’. one thing people have a problem with is, what happened before? was there nothing? was there no time, did the universe start there? it almost begs for there to be someone to say: “aright, 1,2,3, go!”. Scientists call the time before the big bang a “singularity”, which pretty much means “fuck if we know” if i understand correct…
Theres always the obligitory “why are we here”-question, that some religous people seem to think is answered very neatly by “because god wants us to exist”. of course, that doens’t explain why there is a god, existence really isn’t explained.
So, this is kind of turning into a rant, but there is one more thing I want to say something about. Someone earlier said :
‘
Picking on fundies is cruel. It is like picking on a person who is mentally retarded. We should speak slowly to them. Don’t engage them in a conversation that requires logic. And whenever they speak, just smile to yourself, pat them on the head, and say, “sure, whatever you say.”
‘
Thats kind of funny. But it isn’t solving anyone’s problems. They have just as much power as any other person, they can vote. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be allowed to, but you can’t just ignore them as if they don’t exist, even though it might feel like arguing with a brick wall. They have the right to beleive whatever the hell they want to, but i still think we should do our best to convince them that religion isn’t necessary for good morality. We should atleast be able to open their minds that much.
.. well, that was fun. Also, reading through these comments reminded me of a book called “God’s Debris”. Its an interesting read, and if you google it you can find a free version online. Its written by the guy that makes the Dilbert comics, but don’t expect any jokes.
To be religious is to be stupid. Dumb people are religious. Growing up is about learning there is no Santa and no God. The Catholic church exists only to legitimize pedophelia. All priests are pedophiles. At least NAMBLA is honest about it’s intentions. Everyone should reject religion.
That’s a damn good post, Chris. Took long enough for someone to say what I would have said.
It’s like when I listen to Richard Dawkins. He kicks so much religious butt, except when he talks about being atheist. How can he be so smart and yet so stupid?
Atheism can’t be supported - you can’t prove that God doesn’t exist, you can only show religious people how stupid they are for thinking they actually know something about Him.
Is it just me, or does Dawkins (or if you don’t know Dawkins, insert the atheist of your choice) keep getting mixed up between “belief in god” and “blind faith in any particular man-made religion”? Does someone need to teach them the difference between atheism and agnosticism? What evidence do they have that there is no higher being?
Paul, if you read his works Dawkins admits that in the strictist sense he is an agnostic toward god because he cannot disprove god. He points out that it is extremely likely that there is no god and tries to debunk the ludicrous ‘proofs of god.’
His book, the god delusion, also prefaces that he will be targeting the Judeo Christian God but that all blind faith is detrimental to the human race. Along with his short series “the root of all evil” he has another series which attacks superstition and ritual in general which i have caught a few moments of and appears interesting.
truly though, doesn’t “belief in god” require blind faith? and so the seed is planted
Thanks for the correction, Karina. You caught me - I haven’t actually read any Dawkins, just watched a few YouTube clips. I just know he calls himself an atheist in those, and I’m pretty sure I remember him arguing vehemently that there is no god - but I understand that what he was probably saying is that it’s very probable that there is no god. It’s easy find oneself shifting from 99 to 100 percent when arguing.
But to address your second point, Karina, I don’t think belief in god requires blind faith, unless one’s definition of “belief” is the same as one’s definition of “blind faith” (the word blind is probably redundant, come to think of it - my bad).
I guess it also depends on your definition of god. If one has a very specific definition of god then one’s belief is based only on faith, but if one’s definition of god is very general then I don’t think one’s belief in Him is based on faith much more than, say, one’s belief in string theory.
Actually, I’m very careful with my use of the word “belief”, so I guess I do almost equate it with faith. For example I’d be very hesitant to say I believe in string theory, but I do believe that it’s the best theory we currently have.
I guess when someone says “I believe in God” with no proviso or caveat, then that means they’re saying they are convinced in god, so then I guess maybe that IS blind faith, so maybe I’m wrong.
Trouble with words… that’s the main problem. People argue and argue but do they even understand each other? Are they using consistent definitions for their words?
This god stuff is all discussed in “God’s Debris”, by Scott Adams - I’m off to read some more; I was actually just getting to the part where the old guy talks about agnosticism versus atheism, which is what reminded me of this blog. (Thanks Chris, it’s a very good read so far.)
Hot Topic!
A couple of things come to mind as I read through this great conversation.
It’s amusing to me, reading from an objective distance so to speak, that Girlpastor, a Christian- one of those religious people, who some of you have deemed to be the closed-minded ones- seems to have a more agnostic view than many others here. Her question, “Can’t the question be repositioned like this: What can we do to cause less harm in the world?” seems to me to be one of the few statements in this entire thread that actually makes a difference- that actually solicits positive action. And it lays no claim to religion- true, false, or otherwise.
Isn’t a lot of what’s being said here just a batting back and forth of points of view? Nothing really skeptical in a point of view. Maybe a philosophic difference- a disagreement about how the world is put together, but no apparent interest in further inquiry. An atheist knowsknows that there is not a god(dess). That’s pretty bold. Science itself “knows” that science doesn’t know much about the beginnings, the endings, the infinities, the causes, etc. You do?
By the way, I’m not disacknowledging anyone who said the some thing I’m saying- I’m really only addressing those “debating” from a fundamentalist sort of mentality (Don’t feel bad. “god” knows, I’m enough of a “fundy” about some things myself- just not religious matters, thank “god”!)….
…. because, what if we just hang out with “I don’t know”. I don’t know. I don’t believe in God. I just don’t know enough to definitively prove NOT God. Have I had experiences that seem like what others describe as “religious”? Yes. Do they mean anything? So far no. Are they informative, however? Yes indeed, and very moving too. And that’s cool. I don’t think that’s available to an atheist, but it is to an agnostic. It’s not available to a fundamentalist of any religion, but it is to a person living what they would consider a spiritual life, whatever world-model and name it has.
All this speculation on my part here leads me to think that, technically it’s true, atheism is NOT a religion. But it just may be as much of a both-feet-nailed-to-the-floor pseudo-skeptical fundamentalism as any religion by any name, and quite possibly may be just as dangerous to positive discourse (as demonstrated in some of the above comments) and objective inquiry.
God Bless You (But ONLY if you just sneezed!)
You said
“No, I wouldn’t say that the gracious and intelligent people I know are that way because of their faith. Of course, that is an impossible thing to know for sure. But, what I’ve experienced and observed in my life is that people can be good people with or without religion.”
There’s a saying I like…….
With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion.
I do not consider myself to be a negation of something that I do not want to be but rather an affirmation of what I am….do not know the author…but it applies to me…
What confuses me the most about Religious people is this:
They claim that the mountains of evidence for Evolution are unconvincing and theoretical when all of the best minds in Biology accept it as fact.
That Geologists have it all wrong their dating methods are flawed
That physicists and mathematicians don’t understand
That astronomers have miscalculated
For all these reasons they are skeptical to believe in Science.
But,
Give them one Poor Fool writhing in the aisles of their church,
speaking a nonsense made up unstructured language which they call speaking in tongues
And thats all the proof they need to believe in God
samson, that is the vicious ‘faith’ cycle of western religion. the more you deny the evidence around you the stronger your faith. believe that your “truth” is the only “truth” and set aside reason and science and you will be welcome into god’s kingdom outright. how can you begin to have a conversation with those people?
p.s. is this site ever gonna update?
I grew up as a Jehovah’s Witness. My dad didn’t spare the rod, but the only time I remember my mom hitting me was when I asked her for biblical guidance…
I asked - But there was light and dark, right? Then the sun? Then stars? How could they all be on different days? I mean, isn’t the sun a star? Don’t we need the sun for light on the earth?
She imploded and slapped me across the face. I looked back at her and without thinking, slapped her back. Then we looked at each other and started crying. Then we started laughing. And we never talked about biblical interpretation again.
I haven’t been a JW since I decided to go to college.
Sometimes it seems to me that America is becoming like one big Kingdom Hall.
But I did study religion and ethics and literature, and I have hopes that such a small-minded view of faith and the cosmos will fade back again. I can’t believe in my heart of hearts that Americans so long for authoritarianism.
Samson- I’m not a religious person, maybe not even “spiritual”, whatever that means. But I feel that I have to poke around a bit here and check to see how much thinking is going on amongst the Rationalist contingent here (myself included, kinda).
If you’re going to complain that science is being ignored, then it would seem to make sense for you to apply it properly in your own investigation of your world. Do a little informal research (talk to people) and then ask yourself the following question.
Do you really find that most people who consider themselves to be religious in some fashion reject things like evolution, the current conclusions of physics, cosmology and all that? I guess it depends on where you live- I’m isolated way off here amongst the heathens of Los Angeles. But even so, wouldn’t you consider your comments to be a write-off of anyone that gets near the “R” word? The once-a-week Buddhist chanter is lumped with the glossolalia-smitten schmuck in the church.
I’ve only met two people in all of my 49 years that fit your description of a “religious” person. Two. One had the bumper sticker that read, “God said it, I believe. That’s final.” Oh well. Two people that live in very tiny worlds. But all of the other people, of all faiths, including Orthodox Rabbis, Christian Clergy, Buddhists, etc, that I’ve ever talked to about this have all understood their religion as a metaphor, a moral code, a way of relating to the aspects of the universe and of life that science hasn’t yet addressed, and a powerful context within which to live. A System Of Belief. Maybe even A truth, but not necessary THE truth.
There is a certain wisdom necessary to understand that there are many possible and valid models of the world and that they coexist just fine. I find that wisdom expressed among religious people as often as among non-religious people. It’s the dogmatic folks- spending their time, and their minds, griping about how the others are doing it all wrong, terribly wrong- that end up suffering, angry and living small lives; god, goddess, cthulhu, L. Ron, or no god at all.
Just remember- there are two kinds of people: Those who think that there are two kinds of people and those who don’t.
Metaphors be with you!
Fact-The Sun is a Star
Fact-The Moon reflects sunlight
Not a Fact-There is a God
End of discussion
The fact is that a spiritual side, if tempered by reason, doesn’t do harm and can help a person going through crisis. I myself am agnostic, but I lean towards believing there is something greater than humanity, and more random chaos in the universe. I do not believe in a personalized creator god, nor in a god that would damn people for disbelieving him. But my beliefs do not force a single view on me, and are subject to change as I learn more. At it’s very best, religion is a way for people to connect with the greater mysteries of the universe. It is when it is used to close out rational though, scientific fact, and differing views that it becomes dangerous. In short science and spirituality ar not mutually exclusive, science and dogmatism are.
I checked, there is no god(s) he’s(her) a superstition for the people who don’t understand why lightning, the tides and why shit stinks etc……happens. This world would be a better place had Organized Religion never been started. Just look at the mess we(all the people of the Earth) have been in since the dawn of civilization, about the same time Organized Religion started. I don’t label myself as anything, christen, jew, muslim, what have you. I do believe in science and rational thought, no the scientists have not figured everything out but at least they try or at least have an idea, a theory in other word. I find that most devout religious people are very closed minded and very stifiled in thier outlook about the world we live in. I believe that ignorant people don’t know that they even are ignorant, how would they.
You christians out there, where did the Vatican(richest country in the world) get all its richs from, from poor ignorant folk just like you, conquest and greed, thats where. What a bunch of hypocrites.
Oh, by the way, Bill Nye the Science Guy Rocks!!
Christians are liars, and Christian pastors are evil liars.
When it comes to religion, who should care about not ‘throwing the baby out with the bath-water?’
Perhaps a religious individual got their morals from their religion. Maybe the only reason they are a ‘good’ person is because of it. (Does that thought scare you? It should.) That does not change the fact that the basis of their world-view came from doctrine that defines itself with circular-thinking, exclusivism, and self-imposed ignorance. It does not change the fact that no matter how many religious people truly are good people, the doctrine involved will be twisted and convoluted until the ignorant borne from it use it to oppress others for not thinking the same way.
Religion is a mind-virus. A plague that mankind must cure itself of before human thought can progress.
Religion is a concept, a child born of man, not of any of the characters contained therein. A baby that SHOULD be thrown out, bath-water and all.
I wish to add a bit of fairly recent history to the list of ‘crimes’ for which conservative christians are responsible. During the early years of the AIDS epidemic, they fought vociferously in opposition to any public funding for research into HIV and the development of treatment options. The subsequent delay in acquiring antiretrovirals , denied thousands even a fighting chance at additional life.I know. I was there. Through the years I’ve buried fifty-seven good friends.It wasn’t until the all-American , studly, football playing sons of prominent Republicans started dying by the dozen , that Republican mothers turned to their husbands & said “do something & do it yesterday”. In recent years, it was not until HIV/AIDS began to decimate heterosexual Africa , that some evangelicals started programs to assist. From a personal perspective , there will never be room for forgiveness , & my wishes for the right wing & the deeply religious , aren’t fit for cyber space.
I’m a longtime atheist and surrounded daily by very religious christians and jews who are my friends and associates. Here’s what I think needs work: we atheists base our beliefs (or lack thereof) on reason and knowledge whereas religious people do not choose a religion or adopt a belief through those means. Therefore, it will never be productive to engage in a debate about god or religion based on reason and knowledge. It seems to me that we’d do better to focus on the bases of religion and try to understand it. Most of us atheists are like the current U.S. executive branch in its views on terrorism: we see no value in making any attempt to understand (other than superficially) the other side’s point of view. My point– we can be just as narrow-minded as religious people. Let’s open up and get past the obstacles of logic.
I don’t have time to read all these posts; but I do agree from a scientific view that Bill Nye is correct.
In understanding the Bible, historical context is often very important. Thus, one must understand from Moses point of view on earth, staring up at the night sky, it did look as if there were two lights in the sky, and so this is how he described it. Because this is not fundamentally wrong, a reflector can be a place from which light comes, so is it fine for the Bible to state it thus.
I think fundamentalists often forget about history, and that’s the problem here.
I’d like to know how large the crowd was and how many families actually expressed anger and/or got up and left.
If the majority of the crowd was angered I would be concerned, but I am not afraid of the usual handful of loonies… they are simply inescapable!
Job 25:5 States that the moon is a reflection and does not shine. Job is the oldest book in the Bible.
God always knows more than man.